“It’s so dishonest”: Bill Shorten snaps back at Leigh Sales' questions on ABC
Bill Shorten and the Labor party's policies have been put up to the test following intense scrutiny from ABC’s 7:30 host Leigh Sales.
The interrogation went for almost 20 minutes, with Sales grilling Shorten on a range of Labor’s more controversial policies, such as its plan to combat the issue of climate change.
Shorten has been bombarded by questions about the cost his emissions reduction target will have on the economy since the beginning of the campaign. It is now his opponent's, Scott Morrison, favourite talking point.
Sales asked Shorten whether it was true that the low emissions economy would impose a short-term cost to the economy.
Shorten was ready and drew on his meeting with steelworkers in Whyalla on Wednesday.
“There is a cost to investing in new technology, but they’re absolutely convinced that the only way we will keep making steel in Australia is by investing in renewable energy,” he said.
“Let’s just talk to the two million Australian householders who’ve invested in solar power. There is an initial cost, depending on the deals they can get, but most people who go into solar, they don’t go back do they?”
Sales took that answer as an admission that the plan imposes an upfront cost, even if there’s a profit in the long-term.
“So if there is a short term economic cost, you have a 45 per cent target for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. What will be the cost of that to the economy over the next decade, not in dollar terms but as a percentage of economic growth?” she asked.
“It won’t have a negative effect on economic growth. In fact, most of the mainstream modelling shows that our economy will continue to grow,” Mr Shorten said.
“But if you have firms that have to be shifting and making the transition to having lower carbon emissions, that may mean that they have less money to spend on other forms of investment,” Sales snapped back.
She added, “It may mean they have lower profits, so therefore they have less money to deliver in the form of company tax into the government’s coffers. Those sorts of things could have a spin-off impact onto the GDP numbers.”
“The problem with what you’re saying is that you assume that there’s no cost to doing nothing, and there is,” Mr Shorten replied.
“I don’t assume that there’s no cost to doing nothing. I accept your position that there’s a long-term benefit. What I’m asking you to do is square with voters about exactly what the short-term cost is of getting to that position,” Sales pushed.
“Well my absolute conviction and belief is that if we don’t change, the cost will be far greater than any initial investments,” he said.
“If you’re asking me to specify what a particular company and a particular factory will have to do, I can’t do that. Nor could you, nor could the government," the Labour leader continued.
Shorten was on a roll and kept talking, despite Sales' attempts to jump in again.
“No, no, let’s be fair here, Leigh. Let’s be fair. I’m not going to get caught up in this government game of gotcha, where you’ve got to invent a number, which you can’t possibly,” he said.
“The reason why the government’s trying to focus on how much it might cost to put in a new renewable energy system is that they’re trying to distract from the fact they have no climate change policy.”
“But if we could stick with Labor...” Sales interjected.
“It’s so dishonest, this debate. It’s so dishonest,” exclaimed Mr Shorten.
“You say you can’t just pluck a number out of nowhere. You’ve come up with a 45 per cent target. You must have done...” said Sales.
“Well sorry, I didn’t pluck that out of nowhere, that was the Paris Agreement, that’s what the scientists tell us,” he said.
The pair continued to talk over each other until Sales got her next question out.
“As a government, you are adopting that as your policy, you must have done some projections, short term, to what that will mean to GDP. Will it take say, 0.1 per cent off GDP, 0.5 per cent off GDP over 10 years?” she asked.
“Both in the short term and the long term, the cost of not acting on climate change is far worse than acting on climate change,” he said.
Shorten continued his rebuttal, stating, “The Australian people and business are so far ahead of the political debate, you must be bored by the government’s rhetoric, which wants to simply say we can’t do this, can’t do that. The rest of the world is so far ahead of us it’s embarrassing.”
Sales then asked about the internal conflict within Labor over the Adani coal mine in Queensland.
“If there’s a miner sitting in Rockhampton tonight and she wants to know – ‘Mr Shorten, do you reckon this mine will be a good thing for my industry and for Queensland?’ – what would you say to her?” Sales asked.
“I’d say my view on this mine is going to be based on the best science, whether or not it stacks up. And if it stacks up and passes all the scientific tests, I won’t engage in sovereign risk. We won’t arbitrarily upend things,” Mr Shorten said.
“Adani didn’t get the finance, but now they appear to have it. They were talking about a 60 million tonne mine with 10,000 jobs. Now the promises have shrunk,” he said.
The next topic was Labor’s franking credits policy, with a focus on 83-year-old Chris Phillips, who is set to lose $9,000 each year under the policy.
“Is your policy driving someone like Chris heavily onto the public purse?” she asked.
“He already is. And this is the real heart of the issue. When you get an income tax credit when you haven’t paid income tax, it is a gift from the government. You’re already on the public purse,” Mr Shorten said.
The pair touched briefly on superannuation and tax, with Shorten rejecting the accusation that he’s making super “less enticing” for Australians.
Sales ended the interview with a general question.
“Is it fair for a viewer to conclude that a Shorten Labor government will be at its core about the redistribution of wealth? That you want to take more from the wealthy and give more to people on lower incomes?” she asked.
“No, that wouldn’t be right. What we want to do is have real change, because frankly, more of the same under this government isn’t good enough,” Mr Shorten responded.
“Let’s not dumb politics down to six-second sound bites. I’ll give you, as quickly as I possibly can. We’re going to have real change because more of the same isn’t good enough.
"We’re going to get wages moving again. We’re going to take real action on climate change. We’re going to look after three million pensioners and senior health card holders with dental care. We’re going to provide a million Australian families with better child care support. And end the chaos.”